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Tuesday, July 04, 2006

Queerer Than Thou


Dearly Beloved,

From time to time your Spin Cycle correspondents don nondescript apparel and slip out into the eternal night that is the web to infiltrate the labyrinthine world of internet subcultures.

As most of you would be aware, Bucko the Depraved has of late been sodomising sex crazed latino meth-heads he recruits at ManHunt. An astonishingly selfless act on his part, he was motivated to ruin endless sets of high priced bed linen because of his commitment to providing Spin Cycle readers with quality material. We have been privileged to share in the curious and often arousing world of the immigrant manslut.

That's what kind of people we are.

Indeed Matty the Damned is similarly generous, however my journeys have been to far darker places than the cyber bath house of Manhunt. In this offering I intend to give you a glimpse into the chilling realm of the Gay Christians.

No, gentle reader, I don't mean the Uber Weenies from that standing joke of organised christianity, the Metropolitan Community Church. Nor do I refer to the spineless self loathers from the Rainbow Sash Movement. I'm not even referring to the tortured bum fuckers of the Episcopalian Church of the USA.

Some months back my good friend, De-Atrophier, referred me to the Gay Christian Network (GCN) as part of my research for an upcoming article on Ex-Gays. Immediately GCN stood out to me as something special and deserving of an article all of their own. Founded by one Justin Lee, they take themselves very seriously:

"The Gay Christian Network is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization providing
resources and support to Christians who happen to be gay, lesbian, bisexual,
or trangendered [sic]."

See? Queers are real people too! Even the American IRS recognises them. Take that Benny Hinn!!!

The Rouse: My Participation

Intrigued I applied for GCN with little expectation of success. I mean surely someone styling himself as Matty the Damned would be spotted as a trouble making atheist? Not so! Some days later, I received an email from GCN telling me my application had been approved and I could come in and get down with the other saved perverts.

Oh happy day.

Now Matty the Damned is many things, but he's no internet troll. I joined GCN to watch and learn, not create trouble. I openly applied under my standard internet identity. Anyone who googles "Matty the Damned" will find themselves back here at the Spin Cycle.

I posted no more than five times. An introductory post (I relied on my catholic heritage to fudge through that) and some "poor me, I'm so confused about what god wants" threads to quell any suspicions the eagle-eyed moderators may have had and to gain basic recognition from other members so I could participate in some of the on-line live chat sessions. More about
those later.

A House Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand


GCN is a highly organised and structured place. It has extensive message boards for members and we will take a look at those in a moment. What's more interesting is the way in which GCN members are (informally) divided up into little denominations, much like real christianity. Unsurprisingly we have:
  • Non denominational -- (The church isn't a building, man it's the people inside!!)
  • Evangelicals -- (Baptists, Nazarenes, Pentecostals and other fundie whack jobs)
  • Orthodox christians -- (Catholics, High Church Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox and all the other frock wearing child molesters)
  • White bread protestants -- (Presbyterians, Lutherans, Low Church Anglicans, Methodists, Congregationalists and the other dusty old Calvinist/Wesleyan try hards)
  • Miscellaneous weirdos -- (Seventh Day Adventist, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists and refugees from other fringe cults)
As you would expect on a predominantly American forum the balance of power largely rests with the Protestants and Evangelicals. Non denoms get a bit of a look in, but Orthodox christians are few and far between.

Messianic Jews are an interesting bunch. Prattling on in a mixture of English and pseudo-Hebrew they seem to be Jews who accept the divinity of Christ. I suppose when Abba Elohim calls you home, who are you to refuse?

Nevertheless, the standard denominational differences between Jesus freaks
is not representative of the real power divide at GCN. To understand that we have to look at The Great Debate.

In reality the gay world is all about sex. No matter how post modern we want to get about queer identity politics, the whole thing boils down to who (or what) you fuck. If having your arse pounded by a conga line of pipe smoking daddies whilst you're shackled to a dungeon wall is your thing, then you're queer my dear.

And GCN is no different. Its reason for being is all about sex. So let us now examine the real factional divide in this strange little internet community, shall we?

Known to GCN'ers as The Great Debate, gay christians polarise into two competing groups, and you guessed it, the debate is all about biblical truth.

Side A Gay Christians: Let's Get Married and Have Cats

Side A gay christians basically reject the traditional christian interpretation of certain "clobber passages" in the bible, those sections of judeo-christian scripture which are held by many to prohibit homosexual sex.Most of us are pretty well familiar with them and I won't list them here.
They include sections of Leviticus, Judges, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Acts and so on.

Nevertheless, don't be fooled. Just because a Side A gay christian thinks that hot man on man action or reciprocated muff diving is ok between consenting adults these people are not sexual subversives.

Side A gay christians almost all universally maintain that sex of any sort is only permissible in "mutually loving" and monogamous relationships that have been ordained by their god. Pornography, casual encounters whilst single, and masturbation are generally a no-no. Similarly many Side A believers, whilst dismissing the clobber passages of the bible are quick to demand a literal interpretation of other sections of scripture.

Side A gay christians are by far the dominant group at GCN. Indeed the
Benevolent Dictator for Life, Justin Lee is himself keen on a bit of arse action it would seem.

Side B Gay Christians: We Love You but We Won't Fuck You

Side B gay christians maintain that whilst the homosexual orientation is not inherently sinful, sex between people of the same gender is expressly forbidden by the bible. Gay christians are called by their god to be celibate. The christian god is a real funster.

Your average Side B member is tortured by the temptations of the flesh and bonds together with his or her like minded brethren for prayer and support. Generally drawn from the orthodox and evangelical subgroups, they have their own forum, where they can hold hands (strictly platonic of course), cry on each others shoulder and look forward to paradise at Jesus' eternal dance
party. I suspect email addresses and more are exchanged behind the scenes.

Oh yeah, these people are fun.

The Gay Christian Network: Doing Christ’s Good Work One Queer at a Time

GCN is primarily a web forum. Like other forums, there are a variety of message boards and live chat sessions that members can participate in. The message boards are a pretty standard selection and include:
There are also forums specific to members geographic locations (I’m a member of the Australian Forum), a forum for poetry (shudder) and other “creative” outpourings and as I’ve mentioned, a special forum for the Side B sexless freaks.

. . . . you get the idea.

The live chat sessions are an altogether different affair. Strictly moderated, GCN operates a special chat room where members can get together at set times to discuss issues of common interest. There are chats for members from specific countries, two specialist HIV/AIDS chat sessions, a women’s chat, a Side B chat (yup, them again) and so on.

Your intrepid correspondent participated far more in the live chat sessions than in the message boards. Specifically the HIV/AIDS chat and the Australian chat. Both, I can report, were disappointing.

The AIDS chats were pleasant enough. A handful of HIV positive guys in a chat room talking about medications, diagnosis, illnesses and other standard AIDS things. Interestingly the US immigration restrictions on HIV positive people were discussed and a Canadian member called Kenn breathlessly reported that Montreal would host a gathering of HIV positive people from
around the world in August/September 2006.


It’s a small world.

The Australian chat was altogether different. The first one I attended was pretty boring. No mentions of Jesus or the bible. Just talk about the weather, holidays in Tasmania and how one might decorate a room with a harbour view. The second was a little more robust. A Seventh Day Adventist member was very interested in knowing which church I went to, how often I prayed, what my favourite bible passage was and so on. Keen on retaining my low profile, I offered bland responses and managed to dissemble until a moderator diverted him with a talk of an upcoming GCN gathering in Brisbane.

Dissent in the Pews: Let’s Agree to Disagree

The first thing you notice when you join GCN is the creepy oppressive atmosphere of the place. It’s not just any old web forum. There are quite strict rules governing how members must conduct themselves. Allow me to give some examples:
  • No blasphemy or profanity or links to porn sites -- (This seems prettyunderstandable given it’s a christian site)
  • All users avatars must be first approved by the Executive Director and cannot be in anyway immodest – (no muscle shots, boys)
  • Rulings by any of the numerous moderators must not be canvassed publicly –- (A veneer of unity must be maintained at all times, Jerry Falwell could be watching)
  • No “flirty”, overtly sexual or other inappropriate behaviour –- (Jesus can see you playing footsies)
  • “Controversial” and political topics can only be posted in the forums set aside for them
That last one is quite important. Whilst most of the GCN message boards can be read by non-members and lurkers, the two most interesting ones are strictly off limits to outsiders. Hence my motivation for joining. I just had to have a peek in the Inner Sanctum.

The Controversial Topics forum is really where it’s all at in gay christendom. Anything that’s even remotely unsettling gets relegated there and it’s only in Controversial Topics (and to a lesser extent Political Discussion) that one can sees the real natures of GCN members red in tooth and claw.

The style of the topics raised in the Controversial forum go something like this:

“I don’t like fat guys, but is it unchristian not to date them?”
“Pornography: modern day prostitution”
“Foul language”
“Immigration: I’m not a racist but those darned Mexicans . . .”
“Female ordination: would YOU let a woman tell you what to do?”
“Does Satan answer prayers?”
“Ex-gays”
“Roe vs Wade: think of the children”
“Politics and the Church”
“Should I try girls?”
“The nature of God”
“Are condoms REALLY effective against STD’s”
“Gays who get HIV did it to themselves”
“Censorship on GCN"

Again, you get the idea.

Special rules govern the Controversial Topics and Political Discussion forums and member are subtly discouraged from participating there. Even when your membership is approved, you have to choose to join them in your profile. The official reason given by the moderators for these forums (and for why they’re hidden) is that heated debate scares away new members.

The poor little lambs.

The foul language thread was an especially good one. Started by an aging evangelical tub-thumper and egregious conservative queer called FloridaSon
it began with:

“I've noticed many of you use expletives on GCN...

The word

d
a
m
n

for example, has been used 192 times.

Come on people - if you can't express yourself without resorting to crude
language, you've got a problem.

I encourage those of you who use profanity to:

1. Clean up your language, at least on GCN.

2. Expand your vocabulary and your verbal horizons.

3. Remember that as Christians, we are called to be examples. Let's set a
higher standard instead of drifting to the lowest common denominator.

Many thanks!

Rick"

Yup. The prissy old fuck actually searched the message board archives for references to the word “damn”. The precious poor thing would keel over dead if he was in my company for more than 30 seconds. In fact his comments were so blue nosed that a large contingent of members objected and the GCN Administrators shut the thread down because of the discontent it generated.

In the same vein, another member (Vombatus) offered this charming view of matters queer sexual:

"Well, I would also point out that the penis is also an organ of excretion, so this argument applies to any phallic expression of sexuality, homosexual or heterosexual, including 'standard' straight sex... it is the intromission of an excretory organ into the gential region of another.

This argument presupposes that all of our bodily structures have a single purpose. So, your mouth is for tasting, not for breathing (that's what the nose is for! um, unless the nose is for smelling) or talking, or eating. It must be pointed out that the erogenous zones (which are part of sexuality as well as the genitalia) include body parts (all with other functions) that go way beyond the genitals: ears, breasts, mouths, etc. It seems rather odd to privelege the pleasures brought about by mutual friction of two specific body parts as being 'unitive', while the mutual pleasure brought by any combination of two (or more!) other body parts is just... um, physiology?"

It's a regular party over at GCN, kiddies.

People who break the GCN rules get a polite private message from a moderator
asking them to pray and “consider” editing their offending comments. Although versed as a request it is in fact a thinly veiled order. Failure to comply will result in the moderator censoring the message and suspending or banning the member.

And then everyone prays.

Since I don’t post at all, this has never happened to me but it happens to the more progressive members frequently. Conservatives are rarely chided for their naughtiness. Overall the tone of the GCN forums is intensely conservative. Progressives are bludgeoned into submission by tireless reactionaries who quote scripture, refer to the gross immorality of Bill Clinton and generally rant and rave in typical conservative fashion.

Imagine Rush Limbaugh wearing a cock ring and with a butt plug wedged in place. Oh you can? Silly me.

Issues such as disadvantage, discrimination (except within the ludicrous context of “gay marriage”) poverty are rarely if at all mentioned. Which seems strange given that Jesus never seemed to shut up about the poor.

Go in Peace to Love and Serve the Lord

Being a member of GCN has without doubt been one of the stranger experiences I’ve had on the internet (with the exception of that whole Water Sports for Allah affair). A motley collection of ex-ex-gays, confused jesus freaks, unnecessarily cheerful Americans and creepy choir masters from private boys boarding schools, GCN is an unsettling and distasteful place.

I’ve come to the opinion that Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Fred Nile and all the other christian homophobes are right. There is no place for queers in the church and frankly, if GCN is anything to go by, I can’t see what we’re missing out on.

IN SOLIDARITY

MtD

Image credit: The Evil Atheist Conspiracy

43 Comments:

At Wed Jul 05, 04:41:00 AM GMT+10, Blogger Bucko said...

Oh, my dear!

Such brilliance should be bottled and sold at high prices at specialty stores worldwide! How much I missed your wit and wisdom in fully-realized form!

Water Sports For Allah? Just one of the lustrous chestnuts that left me rolling with tears of mirth rolling down my drawn, Zerit-sunken cheeks! God bless you brother, you do mighty good works while yours truly is content spreading the seed from South Beach to Pompano Beach.

I am humbled, luv...simply humbled.

I remain on my knees your devoted disciple...

Bisous,
B

 
At Wed Jul 05, 05:09:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous Lydia Lunch said...

Matty,

Great post. I find it really interesting that in the year 2006 people are totally wrapped up in the writing of ancient nomadic sheep-herders.

I do understand that there is some comfort children derive from such myths as Santa Claus and The Easter Bunny. When adults however continue to take such irrational belief systems involving superstitions and magical thinking to the point that it dictates the decisions in their lives I am boggled beyond belief.

The Bible is one of the most graphically pornographic and violent works of fiction I have ever read. The outlandish assertions and glaring contradictions contained in this insane text make it hard for me to fathom why anyone with half a brain would refer to this as "The Good Book".

The three bloody religions, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are stupid, mindless and evil. They are based on the human creation of a blood-thirsty and psychotic god with little compassion and mercy. How God The Father had such a "loving" son in the form of Jesus is beyond me. Maybe Jesus was just rebelling against dear old dad when he proclaimed "love" as the only law worth mentioning.

When gay people allow such insane religions to control their own lives I am saddened. Why is it that humans so often embrace and seek the approval of the oppressor?

 
At Wed Jul 05, 06:14:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous Lydia Lunch said...

Sorry to sound like Meghan here but, I just went to that horrible Christo-fuckhead site, and saw some of those faces on the forum, all I can say is "Those mother-fuckers are fucking ugly!".

 
At Wed Jul 05, 07:22:00 AM GMT+10, Blogger The Gay Guru said...

Nice post, lol, looking forward to your article on the ex-gay movement..forward it along to my blog or website when finished...If you have not come accross it yet, "Truth Wins Out", www.truthwinsout.org, is a newly formed, good resource you might want to look at....enjoying my fourth of July holiday here, and giving some blogger love to my blogger friends...take care...GG

 
At Wed Jul 05, 10:23:00 AM GMT+10, Blogger Matty the Damned said...

Buckette! Mayhap we should form our own religion? Our version of hell could be an eternity in a dentists' waiting room with Megsy.

Lydia,

Our thoughts on these subjects are so aligned it's scary. If only you could see inside the GCN Controversial Topics forum. Since I published my article a new thread has appeared on how "gay sex" is humilating and degrading and why can we all just kiss?

I kid you not.

I suppose it's to be expected when fucking is described as the "intromission of the excretory organ into the genital region of another."

And yes babe, there IS a whole lot of ugly going on at GCN. Megsy would be horrified.

GG,

Welcome to the Spin Cycle! I'm glad you liked the article. The Ex-Gay one should be even better. Visit often!

MtD

 
At Wed Jul 05, 12:29:00 PM GMT+10, Blogger De-Atrophier said...

Oooh honey, you inspired me to digg up my old password and log into the old GCN community. Dear God, honey, those forums are tragic! When they were first starting out, which is when I joined, they had chat rooms but they were only on AOL and you had to be invited. I don't think they liked me joining them much because they stopped inviting me. I think its because I kept hitting on Yakkow, even though, now, I don't think he's very attractive. Oh honey, thanks so much for this posting, I really enjoyed it!

 
At Thu Jul 06, 01:41:00 AM GMT+10, Blogger Bucko said...

"Buckette! Mayhap we should form our own religion? Our version of hell could be an eternity in a dentists' waiting room with Megsy."

Heheheheee-
My views on matters of the spirit, like my views on matters political and sexual step so far off the page that I'm unsure who'd want to join or what, pray tell, we'd find in the collection plate, luv.

But anyone interested in discussing their own purile brand of penitence and absolution is always welcome to join in the discussion.

Loving you like puppies-
B

 
At Sun Jul 09, 09:18:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous "Joe" said...

Holy dog shit! I just stumbled on to the motherlode of optimism and feel-good, here! What a wholesome bunch... half of them are dying, and the other half might as well be dead, seeing life has kicked the supreme shit outta them!

I see Lydia isn't in love with Jesus, and the poor dear is burdened with all of us fighting and killing each other... as if she really gave a fiddler's fuck! Sweet'ums: don't you worry none about us, we like what we do. And when you come up with a better life-style that doesn't leave you a bitter, used-up cynic, you let us know and we'll consider it. Okay, Babe?

Matty: sorry you're on the way out, but maybe you can still be blood-brothers with Christ, even if none of us is willing. He, unlike the rest of us earthly jackals, really does care, and if you channeled some of that sarcastic wit of yours toward searching out alternatives to that wonderful 'life' you have, you might be a lot happier.

Okay... delete away! Love and kisses!

 
At Sun Jul 09, 03:55:00 PM GMT+10, Blogger Matty the Damned said...

Holy dog shit! I just stumbled on to the motherlode of optimism and feel-good, here! What a wholesome bunch... half of them are dying, and the other half might as well be dead, seeing life has kicked the supreme shit outta them!

I see Lydia isn't in love with Jesus, and the poor dear is burdened with all of us fighting and killing each other... as if she really gave a fiddler's fuck! Sweet'ums: don't you worry none about us, we like what we do. And when you come up with a better life-style that doesn't leave you a bitter, used-up cynic, you let us know and we'll consider it. Okay, Babe?


I was wondering when one of the GCN crowd would pop by to share the vibe. Given your flagrant use of profanity, I suspect you're not as cowed by the Will of Pope Justin as some of the others.

Good for you, kiddo!

Matty: sorry you're on the way out, but maybe you can still be blood-brothers with Christ, even if none of us is willing. He, unlike the rest of us earthly jackals, really does care, and if you channeled some of that sarcastic wit of yours toward searching out alternatives to that wonderful 'life' you have, you might be a lot happier.

Okay... delete away! Love and kisses!


Always with the plug for Old JC! Yeah honey, I'm not worthy. My life is empty because I don't subscribe to the alleged prattlings of some 2000+ year old dead jew.

I may be on the way out, but I'll keep a nice seat for you in Hell babe.

Give my love to the rest of the self-loathers Joe. ;-D

MtD

 
At Mon Jul 10, 12:44:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous "Joe" said...

Sorry, Babe... can't speak for your GCN crowd, never met 'em. Never even heard of 'em until I saw your blog. See, I was born disfunctionally straight, but you won't hold that agin me, now, will ya?

I see you really do have issues with your life per se, seeing your use of the modifier "empty." So what "prattlings" do you hold to, amigo, that are working so well for you to have held on to 'em for so long?

As for me following some fucking pope... forget that! Those self-righteous bastards don't need my adulation. Oops... I shouldn't swear! (I just thought the liberal use of expletives was commonplace here!) Sorry.

You're right... we're ALL on the way out. Just some sooner than others, I s'pose. No need you worrying about holding me a seat in hell though, sweetie... neither one of us is going THERE!

(Now... where do they all get the idea I loathe myself...?)

 
At Mon Jul 10, 01:17:00 AM GMT+10, Blogger Bucko said...

Welcome, Joe-

I really am pleased that you have stumbled on The Spin Cycle, or that, after having finally wrung the last drops of sacred seed from your scrotum following a trip down Bucko Boulevard you paused to consider Matty's wonderous exercise in the written tongue. Either way, your comment is appreciated, darling.

"What a wholesome bunch... half of them are dying, and the other half might as well be dead, seeing life has kicked the supreme shit outta them!"

I'm feeling the love of Christ in this passage...

"I see Lydia isn't in love with Jesus, and the poor dear is burdened with all of us fighting and killing each other... as if she really gave a fiddler's fuck!"

So much here to chew on and digest thoroughly, dear.

"In love with Jesus"...is that the new goal of Christendom? Must we now send him flowers and remember his favorite food for those special dinners? And yes, luv, Lyds does have an incredible empathy of mankind, one that is peaceful and generous toward man. Didn't you read her wise parable on smegma?

"Sweet'ums: don't you worry none about us, we like what we do." You say this right after expressing some concern for Lydia and her being "burdened with all of us fighting and killing each other". I guess this means that you "like" killing each other. War is just like the Eucarist, doll, except with better food?

"And when you come up with a better life-style that doesn't leave you a bitter, used-up cynic, you let us know and we'll consider it. Okay, Babe?"
There's no trace of bitterness or cynicism in your post, Joey dear. I'm really glad the Jesus thing's working out for you.

"Matty: sorry you're on the way out, but maybe you can still be blood-brothers with Christ, even if none of us is willing." Too late, darling. MtD and I are already blood-brothers, and we have the built-up scar tissue to prove it!

"He, unlike the rest of us earthly jackals, really does care, and if you channeled some of that sarcastic wit of yours toward searching out alternatives to that wonderful 'life' you have, you might be a lot happier."

And yet even without caring, you still took the time to write us here at The Spin Cycle.

You know, the thing about Xtians above all else that whacks me upside the head the most is the idea that we who have found solace in its alternatives (be it Santeria, Paganism or pure Atheism) is that our spirituality (or utter lack thereof) comes from a place of ignorance and not deep knowledge and experience. Matty's (and mine as well, BTW)awareness of the philosophical underpinnings and historical context of the traditions and faith of "the bloody three" (to quote Lydia regarding Christianity, Judiasm and Islam, not my latest sexual encounters) exceeds any who haven't made a career studying them.

Among the endless string of consorts with whom I've frolicked in my life, one of the most interesting mentally (if least enthralling sexually) was a lost soul who had been a parish priest in new York until his HIV status was discovered and he was defrocked and "exiled" (his term, not mine) to the hedonistic playground of fun and sun here in Ft Bottomdale. We met at that holiest of SoFla holies, Georgie's Alibi, on the patio having a smoke. I'll not relate the particulars of our meeting and subsequent relations, because my early post-Ken dating episodes deserve their own blog post and I wouldn't want to spoil the fun.

But we did have several tetes-a-tete intimes at which time discussion generally turned to matters of the soul. You see, he was concerned about the state of my soul second only to the state of my cock, and was puzzled to the point of distraction as to how someone with such deep knowledge of the mechanics of faith could profess so little. You see, in real life I might be a sarcastic little devil, but I am neither stupid nor bitter. There clings to me a stubborn optimism and spirituality as profound as it is utterly alien to any specific dogma, and my episteme of bibical tracks was sufficient to know that the Old Testiment is actually a redaction of many older, diverse texts commonly labeled either "Yahwist", "Elohist" or "Jehovist", depending on its source. As this is not your standard fare for what passes for conversation in Florida, my ex-priest hailed me as an "angel" and thereafter refused all further sexual advances, saying such would be a sacrilege!

Truth be told, my taste for his slack open mangash had run its course, but even so. Must one be considered an exile from the Book of Enoch to have such knowledge at one's disposal?

Whoever said smart is sexy has obviously never passed an hour in a gay bar.

Hosannas amd palm fronds to all-
B

 
At Mon Jul 10, 06:50:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous Lydia Lunch said...

Hey Joe,

Wow! I don't know where to start. I just guess that I will start with the obvious. It is funny that most of the people I have met who claim to know the "love" of Jesus are among the most hateful, ignorant and bitter people I have ever encountered.

Don't assume that I am bitter, I rather like my life. Unlike the heterosexually burdened, I am able to pursue what I want to pursue. I am not restricted to one sexual partner. I am not financially restricted by the burden or raising children.
I am able to educate myself to the point that I feel satisfied. I am also able to become involved in political causes and issues that matter to me.

Your hateful spew is just par for the course when it comes to dealing with heterosexist religionists. Sorry, your brand of bitter hatred and unthinking cruelty is rather generic.

Yawn.

Now go nibble on the "body and blood of Christ" and repeat all the pseudopagan rituals that makes christianity different from her sister religions, Islam and Judaism.

"Dude" at least the faux ghetto-mama urban lesbian street fighters were interesting in the same way that "bathroom jokes" and "slapstick humor"
take our minds of the troubles of the day.

As far as not caring about the bloodshed that has resulted from the three "bloody" religions, think again.
It bothers me a great deal. It also does not shock me when war and hatred come from such hatred filled doctrines.

You are a big flaming example. Albeit a generic one at best. Now go watch the game, drink some beer and think about the Coors girls when you fuck the "little woman".

 
At Mon Jul 10, 07:01:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous Lydia Lunch said...

Joe,

Face it "dude" Jesus is just Santa Clause for grownups. In fact, there is not hard evidence that he ever existed. The New Testament was written nearly 75 years after his supposed death. Also, there are no historical references to him in the documents related to the Roman History of the day. Yes, the Romans kept records from that era, including records pertaining to Israel and the Jews.

Many scholars think that Jesus is just a fictitious character, just like Santa. And let's take it one step further, there is really no more hard proof that Jesus now "exists" as there is proof that Santa Claus also exists.
True there are millions of breathless Christians who swear that he is real, just as there are millions of breathless children who swear that Santa is real.

We are all afraid of the unknown. Humans are often to egocentric to imagine that the universe can possible go on without their presence and contribution. This is largely why people believe that they "go to heaven" after death. Not that much more ridiculous than thinking that a jolly old fat man slides down every child's chiney simultaneously and delivers presents to those "worthy".

"Heaven" is a reward given to those worthy upon death. "Presents" are a reward given to children deemed worthy upon "christmas" day. Both involve rewards for being good and involve punishments for being bad.

Both are myths used to control people and make them behave, and above all, to not think.

After all, let's examine the story of the "garden of eden". The thing that separated humans from god was the quest for truth, ie Eve eating from the truth of knowledge.

Think about it. These religions tell us that wanting to know the truth, wanting knowledge is evil, and that following blindly like sheep is good.

Sounds like brainwasking to me.

 
At Mon Jul 10, 07:21:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous "Joe" said...

Cutting to the chase...

"You see, in real life I might be a sarcastic little devil, but I am neither stupid nor bitter. There clings to me a stubborn optimism and spirituality as profound as it is utterly alien to any specific dogma..."

As to the first comment... yes! I know you are not stupid! That is what attracted me to this site. There is a lot of intellectual prowess, here, and that is what to me is fascinating what with the moroseness prevalent. As for bitter... well...

And you're(not)feeling the love of Christ, now, are you? That's funny, seeing how you're trying to distance yourself from Him the best way you can! You'd actually have to know him to know what His love is, and you're not exactly professing any notion of doing that! So, how do you tell me if what I say or do equates to His love or no?

See... I've heard so many statements like Lydia's; self-righteous retaliatory stabs at folk who want to have a different life other than what humanism/socialism in all of it's self-proclaimed superiority claims to offer. Those with feelings of rebellion and/or remorse and it's accompanying feeling of hopelessness are always trying to piss on everyone else's party by accusing them of being the very thing they are... snobbish and "holier-than-thou." Does she really have that concern for humanity, or do we just get in the way of her feeling sorry for herself?

Matty made the remark I don't "cow to the will of Pope Justin", and I might add to that I'm the first to admit I may not present the picture of quintessential Christendom. In fact, I damn well do what it takes to get my message across, and if that means using profanity, lewd expressions, or whatever-the-fuck-ever, then I'll do it. I pick whoever the hell I want to hang with, and if that fucks up someone's pre-conceived notions of Christian deportment or Christian behaviour, well that's their problem. Why should I limit myself? Piss on that bullshit!

You are an astute bunch! You're damn right when you allude to the fact that if I didn't really care, I wouldn't be here at all. You see... I lie when it suits me, too. Of course, I really didn't in this case, because people of your intellect would not have a problem deducing my ruse at all. Being the strange fuck I am, I DO care about you.

Don't worry... I won't get slobbery here. Everyone has their own brand of hell, and I've been to mine enough times to know hurting when I see it. Oh, I realize there may be some that are satisfied with whatever life they think they have, but I also know there are some that aren't quite so sure. Far from being one to push anything on anyone, it is to those uncertain ones that I offer some form of empathy... half-assed as it might seem to be.

But, I never hang around where I'm not wanted. Say the word, and I'm gone! I like the brains, here. Not the ass... the brains, and appreciate the interchange. It's... shall we say... stimulating!

And thanks for the welcome, Bucko! Toodles!

 
At Mon Jul 10, 10:09:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous Lydia Lunch said...

Joe,

First of all, I am so tired of religionists telling me that my life is somehow "empty" without god. I contend that it is rather full, and that I do not need to fill it up with imaginary friends like Jesus to find meaning in existence.

One reason that those of us who are not religionists get so bent out of shape is because we are constantly having our religious freedom trampled upon by religionists.

Yes, freedom from religion is freedom of religion. Your civil rights end where mine begin. Not following a religion is a religious choice. To respect the right to believe one must also respect the right not to believe.

The cliche that gay people are bitter and lonely is just a very tired and boring cliche. You want to see bitter and boring, just scan the suburbs where lonely and bored men and women live lives of quiet desperation.

I also have heterosexual friends who are not restricted by the sad social norms imposed by the religionists. Women are free to choose partners or not, to have children or not. Men are free to have sex with more than one person or not. Both these freedoms apply equally to both men and women, yet religions impose strict gender roles that often bind people into futile lives of misery.

Oh, wait a sec, I am being too general thinking that all heterosexual couples are sexually frustrated simpletons consuming consumer goods and popping antidepressants, while molesting their young daughters (most molestation cases statistically occur within the family unit and by family members) or bagging the local supermarket box boy.

Yes, it is wrong to be too general when we are talking about human beings but that is what you have done here with your sad, tired, and generic cliches.

Now it seems that your mood is becoming more stable, and you are declaring that you "care" about Bucko and Matty. How completely bipolar of you after you gleefully stated that Matty was "on his way out" of this life. Then again, the god you worship, the one in the bible was always doing that, loving one minute and killing the other.

So I am not shocked by your inconsistent and unstable mood changes.

 
At Mon Jul 10, 10:12:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous dachshund said...

Hello Joe,
So let me get this right...you cuss, hang out with whoever the fuck you want, don't give a shit what others think, and you are filled with the holy spirit...you are one sneaky little proselytizer...I'll give you that. You are what you get when you cross a Jehovah Witness with an atheist...someone who knocks on your door for no god damn good reason. I am afraid we have heard it all before dear.
Don't worry, no one will ask you to amscray...opinions around here are like assholes. All are welcome.

Aunty Doxie

 
At Mon Jul 10, 03:15:00 PM GMT+10, Anonymous "Joe" said...

Lydia:

Well, I'm glad you're happy with your life. I know you'll get the very best you can from it.

The transition from one emotional level to the next is rather dramatic in your comments. I'll speak to the second one, as it seems more rational.

If you want to compare Santa Clause with Christ, you need to consider the former's rather brief sojourn in our culture. It's so brief as to be inconsequential considering the comparatively ancient history of Christianity, and it's indelible impact upon society; impressing even pagan cultures to want to emulate it, and they have in many "pseudo-Christian" ways.

I wouldn't assume that the delay between the events of the gospels and their transmission in any way negates their voracity or authenticity. Remember, adherents to the new faith were preoccupied trying to stay alive by eluding people that thought a lot along the lines as you do now. Naturally, Roman society, like the Egyptian, Babylonian and Greek dynasties, were loathe to recognize any other authority than their own, and competing ideologies wouldn't get much press except through isolated accounts.

I don't place the same faith in "scholars" as you either, because they're humanist and they would naturally say that religion is hooey. Nevertheless, corner a few of the more 'adept' and they will freely admit that their philosophy is inherently religious in it's own right, and that the other alternative is a serious enough threat that they need to replace it either through deception or brute force if necessary... the former being more preferable and the most successful as borne out by the existence of the atheistic society we now have.

Your mention of the edenic confrontation only proves the impact the historic reference to the origin of the opposition toward Christianity has had on humanity, and proves there is a record of the origin of humanistic thinking, and of the resultant consequences of following one's own wisdom into heretofore uncharted and unfamiliar realms of morality against divine counsel. Man has never been good at taking advice for anything, preferring to find out the hard way and then pronouncing himself superior for having done so. That would put the AIDS affliction up there among our greatest achievements, I s'pose.

Following blindly like sheep is a prequisite for inception into humanism. "Trust me" the used car salesman bleats, as you roll off the lot. So the humanist proponent tells you that you are the result of a chance encounter, billions of years ago, of minute particles of space dust that somehow coalesce and morph through myriads of different protoplasmic and fish and ape-like beings that eventually achieve a level and grasp of the more elevated and sophisticated emotional concepts of love and morality -- items that are completely unecessary and un-called for in the evolutionary paradigm for a species' survival. Yeah... talk about Santa Claus! That rationale effectively tells me that given enough time and maybe a little sunlight and water, my car keys might eventually produce a mate for you!

So you see, Lydia, we're all religious. But I place more stock in my religion simply by virtue of the fact that it's been around longer than yours, and that yours is a desperate attempt to do away with mine because yours strokes your ego and tells you that you answer to no one but yourself, and your little diatribe earlier about the benefits of your lifestyle being so superior to mine is proof of that.

In summation, if you are right and I'm wrong, all I've lost by following the lie of God's moral law is a life of degradation, disease, (barring unfortunate accidents) and (assuming he follows suit) strife with my neighbor. However, if I am right, you lose EVERYTHING!

When it comes right down to it, we all live by faith, because we have so damn little control over our environment and the elements. There are no absolutes, and I can no more produce the proof you desire that God is real any more than you can show me with 100% certainty that we came from pond scum.

It's all a matter of averages... trust me!

P.S. I'm going to be gone for a few days, so if I'm not already written-off, I'll bid you all adieu... and may God bless!

 
At Mon Jul 10, 05:18:00 PM GMT+10, Anonymous Lydia Lunch said...

Joe,

Yawn. You are verbose and boring. You don't believe scholars, and I don't believe the ramblings of undereducated wordy fucks, so go figure.

Your attempt to scare me into belief is pathetic. You are just one of so many nasty, rude, and boring religionists I have encountered. I must say that I do prefer the pseudo-lesbian, ghetto-mama, concerned mothers to another arrogant, ignorant, and highly cliched steaming pile of heterosexist garbage.

Try being a bit less verbose, a bit more concise, and a bit less cliched and perhaps one might take your points of view more seriously. Your sarcasm is hardly intelligent, and merely illustrates your own hypocrisy. Now go praise Jesus you hateful fucktard.

Once again, yawn.

 
At Mon Jul 10, 05:21:00 PM GMT+10, Anonymous Lydia Lunch said...

BTW Fucktard,

If you believe that for something or someone to exist, that someone or something needed a creator, then I must ask the following:

Who the fuck created GOD? If GOD could come into being without another GOD bringing him into being, then why can you not fathom that life on this or any other planet for that matter came about without a "creator"?

Now go be a prick, and then tell me that you have the love of Christ in your heart.

 
At Mon Jul 10, 11:05:00 PM GMT+10, Anonymous dachshund said...

Joe you talk about "the existence of the atheistic society we now have". You obviously have not been walking around Beulah Land lately. We could start with Kansas where creationism is taught in science classes right along with that nasty "theory" of evolution. Or how 'bout Ohio, where they have approved (with taxpayer money) a twenty million dollar creationist museum that proves the earth is six thousand years old. We have faith-based initiatives receiving tax payer money...South Dakota restricting a woman's right to choose...the list goes on and on. The attack on science here in the good ol' U.S.A. is quite shocking. Christians are fighting to ban the use of the vacine to stop the spread of the HPV virus in women...you know the one that causes cervical cancer. Top that off with all the polls taken that show a high percentage (over seventy) of Americans believe in God, prayer, and the possibilty of salvation. I think you are confusing atheism and religion with materialism...Godless or God-fearing, Americans corner that market. Maybe you could quote me that scripture about it being easier to put a camel through the eye of a needle.
Joe I must agree with Lyds (hi doll) you are a bit wordy. Quit trying to sound like you just finished your Oral Roberts University term paper. I like when you get down and dirty when you are talking to the peeps.
Joe, your homework assignment is to convince me in two hundred words or less why homosexuality is a choice.

Aunty Doxie

 
At Tue Jul 11, 06:40:00 AM GMT+10, Blogger Bucko said...

Ladies, please...must I get the leather gloves and paddle left so graciously in my hovel by Dawgpound and give you both a spanking?

My disenfranchisement from the church of my parents merits a blog post of its own, but I'll outline the particulars as briefly as possible.

Contrary to popular myth, I was not raised by wolves. My parents were not nearly so glamourous. They were two aspiring kids from the optimistic 50s, where everything was possible provided one wanted it enough to work really hard, played by the rules and fit into the right slot in society's hierarchy of race and class. They had been raised in turn by more mature adults who had enjoyed the abundance of the 20s only to see it all evaporate in the Depression. Of my grandparents, who were deeply pragmatic souls, two were faithful (one grandmother and the opposite grandfather) and two were not. But any manifestation of religiosity was considered very vulgar and more than a touch suspect amongst all four. One's relationship with Providence (no, not the city) was a deeply private matter, made more meaningful by its quiet affirmation on the polished oak pews within the white-painted walls of a low-church Episcopal chapel.

My father has always professed strong faith and attends services even today. My mother also contends that she is deeply faithful, but cannot bring herself to worship in any traditional sense. Within the culture of New England and alluding as briefly as I have to the context of their parent's religious expression, I hope that I've made it clear how very commonplace and acceptable within my class and race such things were and still are. I was raised as a small boy with the love of God and the love of Christ being a key factor in our home. My father would take us (my sister and I) to Sunday service, and we each attended church school regularly. My mother would attend on Easter, and Christmas and always was smartly turned out for the occasion. Everything was very calm on the surface, even as they battled their private demons of alcoholism, drugs and infidelity behind the red-painted door of our suburban house. It was the 60s, after all. The revolution wasn't televised, but still made it into our home nevertheless.

The shit hit the fan with the birth of my youngest sister Sherry in 1970, ten years after me. Born very premature, she was a "miracle baby" for the nurses in her pediatric ward. Being a reconcilliation baby, my parents saw the state of her health as emblematic of the state of their marriage and our little family as a whole. She came through and was a laughing, happy, completely normal toddler when she contracted Eastern Equine Encephalitis at my father's parent's summer home in New Hampshire and fell into a coma following convulsions which were terrifying to see.

Sherry spent almost a month in a coma, and when she emerged, she was totally transformed into "hell baby": a violent, screaming thing incapable of anything approaching civilized behaviour. She would aggress on anybody, but mostly on herself and needed constant care and supervision. My mother, who loathes anything not striving toward perfection at all times, fell into a dark pit of drugs, alcohol and abusive behaviour toward my sister and me. She was relentless and awesome in her attacks.

With her abuse came neglect as well. Food may or may not have been in the house or prepared in an edible way. Chores such as laundry and landscaping became the responsibility of my sister, who was nine, and me (eleven at the time). We divided up care of our sister between us on weekends, as Sherry had a babysitter weekdays from 8-6 or 7. My sister had her on Saturdays, I on Sundays. My dad retreated further into booze, drugs and hard-core porn when not working one of his two or three jobs. When I saw him (which was rare) we had only slight interactions. But he usually made it to church and would take me along, my sister having decided to spend her free morning elsewhere. We would bring Sherry, who was treated very kindly in the nursery by a teen hippy/freak (think Edie Sedgwick without the limo) who loved her very much.

My minister was fully aware of what was happening in our house, but his pastoral activities revolved primarily around assurring that my parent's committment to the collection plate continued apace despite the bumps in our tranquillity. At twelve I was confirmed and became an acolyte which was deeply meaningful to me. At fourteen I became a church-school teacher, responsible for the moral uplift of kids just a few years younger than me. I was the leader of my youth group, and organized socials at the local state mental hospital, among other things.

It was around this time that I became very involved in retreats to one of the very few Protestant monasteries in existence, The Society of St John The Evangelist, or the Cowley Fathers, (Google them, I am not savvy enough to supply links in the comments section) which was my first exposure to Anglican traditions of the high-church order. My minister suggested them to me, thinking that perhaps the rituals and rites, as well as the intellectual level of the brothers and fathers there (the monastery is essentially on the Harvard campus, facing the Charles River) would occupy my young,eager mind and probing quest for deeper faith. The fact that I was such a sissy boy must surely have not passed unnoticed as well, and the extravagant trappings of high-church splendor have always been wedded to flagrant prissy queerness, despite vows of celibacy amongst the brothers and fathers of the order, supported to such a degree at its founding in Boston by none less than Isabella Stewart Gardner, Boston's greatest fag-hag of the late 19th and early 20th century.

In short, I was fed to the wolves.

I'm going into such detail to bring full context to the situation I found myself in when I was fifteen and, literally, all hell broke loose.

I was committed to coming to church every Sunday, as I had a class to teach. But I was also committed to caring for Sherry on Sundays, especially in the mornings. I could not yet drive, nor could I bring Sherry on my bicycle, and it was too far to walk. My father wasn't always reliable to get us to church, and getting rides was a tricky affair, as Sherry terrified most of the parishoners (demon baby, hell child, remember?). The hippy/freak chick eventually graduated high school (or ran away, I never really knew which) and I was sat down by the head deacon at my church. As there was no one else within the parish willing to deal with Sherry, he essentially told me to make other arrangements. Sherry was no longer welcome into God's home. The pastor responded half-heartedly to my pleas for a solution to this dillema, ultimately insisting that only a family member could properly assure Sherry's "safety".

My sister was exhausted form her burdens and couldn't really understand the fuss. My Mother, who may or may not still have been out on dalliances with motorcycle toughs and half of the male teenage population of Boston's South Shore on Sunday morning was quick to remind me of my committment to my family, which took priority over my spiritual affairs (Ah irony, my old pal). I reached a deadlock and decided to remove myself from the spiritual focus of my life, or at least its biggest component.

This was all exactly co-incident with a scism within the Episcopal church involving the ordination of women. Being profoundly conservative in their prissy queer Anglican fashion, the Cowley Fathers were wrung asunder by this crisis. Amongst the chief defectors was a priest by the name of Father Terry, a thirty-something man who had taken me under his wing, meeting me in Harvard Square for mint tea and clove cigarettes regularly. He also sent me many letters which caused my mother to become most suspect, but which always revolved around the love of Christ and support for me in my various adolescent dramas.

As I was struggling to cope with Sherry's eviction from the church nursery, I got a call from father Terry. Deeply upset without saying precisely why, he asked if I'd meet him at a certain address in Dorchester, as he had something to discuss with me of a personal nature. I went without question, trusting Father Terry completely as my spiritual advisor and mentor in Christ, taking a bus and the subway to get there.

When I arrived, Father Terry offered me some tea and ushered me upstairs to a simple but elegantly appointed bedroom in an otherwise darkened mansion that I later discovered was church property. He had left the monastery, never to return, when matters came to a head regarding the whole ordination thing, which he felt was outrageously sinful to God and Christ. Others has left too, as he named several men for whom I had deep, reverential respect. I was at a loss as he began crying and asking me for comfort, so I hugged him tightly.

Quickly regaining his senses, he bagan to discuss my attraction to men, which I had confessed back in Harvard Square one rainy afternoon, and over which I was confused and guilty. Hugs turned to caresses, which led to strokings through my clothes. He suggested a small outing might be in order and took one of the cars garaged in the carriage house on the property. In less tha ten minutes, we were standing under the marquis of nothing less than South Station Cinema, which I mentioned in detail in a blog July 2005 (see Innocent Debauchery Lost for the full story of the place). I had never been inside before but had walked past mightily intrigued (remember, I was fifteen). He paid the admission and we entered, spending perhaps an hour there watching the action on the screen as well as the action all around me. I finally asked to leave with a mixture of horror and horniness in equal parts.

In the car afterwards, he asked if I saw "anything [I'd] like to try". Despite a ferocious hardon, I wasn't ready for anything sexual just yet and settled for making out. As he drove me home, he repeatedly told me that, although normal and healthy, I must never discuss what we'd done, especially what he wanted us to do together or where we'd been, and I agreed. He dropped me off at the end of my street and I climbed the hill to our house in a damp, chilly mist. But my mother smelled a rat and demanded to know what I'd done and whom I'd seen. Not seeing any reason to lie, I told her that Father Terry and I had had tea and discussed his leaving the monastery, leaving out the parts about the facesucking, groping and hardcore gay porn. But she wasn't buying it and forbade me from further contact, not just with Father Terry, but with the entire monastery. Later she'd confiscated his letters, so innocent and spiritual, and made a public display of burning them in the fireplace after school shortly thereafter, daring me to cry and see what might happen if I did.

I did not.

Lest anyone think that this is another one of Bucko's smutty tales from the darkside, let me hasten to say that it's all true and all happened in late spring/early summer 1975.

I felt the love of Christ, but he had smallish freckled hands and he smelled of gingivitis and moisturizing bath soap.

I had another experience, many years later in 2001, which is more illustrative of my relationship with the spirit, but I'll not sully it with the tale of Father Terry and the narrow minds of the church of my youth.

B

 
At Tue Jul 11, 07:09:00 AM GMT+10, Blogger Bucko said...

Lyds, dear-

In the words of one of my personal Goddesses Chrissy Hynde, "You shouldn't let your manners slip, you're too precious" ;-).

Joe deserves the modicum of respect we show everyone around here, so consider the more gracious Mister Fucktard, the more effete Monsieur le Fuquetard, the sexier Senor Fucktardo or perhaps the kinkier Herr Fuktardt.

He will be relentless in his prostheletizing as he sees no alternative in saving our damaged souls for the loving (if occasionally capricious and often brutal) arms of Jehovah and the son he loved enough to have tortured and killed. You and I are both keenly aware of the contradictions and complexities of the oxymoron called Christian Intellectual Dialog.

I am reminded of a lesson I learned from my Latin fuckpals: never question his personal relationship with his Mother, and never question his personal relationship with Jesus. They are both off the table if you wish to continue any access to his hot, swarthy hole, darling.

Off to prepare for a date with a young man from Miami who's most anxious to see what all the fuss is about-

Bisous,
B

 
At Thu Jul 13, 04:06:00 PM GMT+10, Anonymous "Joe" said...

Hi, Kiddies... I'm ba-a-a-a-ck!

I don't know about the "effete" part, but I kinda like the "Monsieur le Fuquetard" handle, or perhaps more rightly; Monsieur le Phoquetarde!

You know you'll be accused of being wordy, there, Bucko. An interesting saga, no less. But you are wrong on one point, and that is my relentlessness. Nope. Don't think so.

I would like to say that although I did not have the unfortunate up-bringing that you did, I did experience a 'falling-away' as it were with the church, and felt that nobody really gave a fuck either, much like you. After a sojourn of a few years, I decided that the truth I had learned could be adapted to a solitary experience (even hermitical) if need be, and decided that it was worth going it alone if that was what it took.

So, here I am. My ways are unorthodox, to be sure. I suppose that's what got me ostracized to begin with. But you, like so many, look at the messenger, when the message itself is quite benign. I don't want to be wordy, so I won't go into semantics about God's seeming indifference toward man, but if you can honestly tell me that there hasn't been some good in your life in some remote instance, or seen it in someone else's experience; well... I'll say adios amigos and amigas, and ride off into the sunset!

Lyds -- nobody created God, Babe... He always was. Evolution needs pre-extant material, too, so it's not such a hard thing to visulaize.

Dach -- queerness may or may not be a choice, but if the latter, I'd chalk it up to the result of a fallen nature, which landed us all here in this shithole in the first place. Myself, not being of your particular coterie, have my own unique temptations which if entertained would land me in the same barrel of shit that gays find themselves in, societally and ecumenically. Therefore, I CHOOSE to abstain.

Monsieur le Phoquetarde! Hmmm... rather catchy!

 
At Thu Jul 13, 05:08:00 PM GMT+10, Blogger Matty the Damned said...

So Joe tell me, where did you learn your shtick? Some inner city youth ministry?

You're good, I'll give you that. Not good enough to fool Matty the Damned, but then that's a bar over which none can leap and believe me I know all about bars.

You started with the hostile approach, the tacky comments about us being half dead of AIDS and what not. You figured that would provoke a response and you need a response to maintain a dialogue, huh Joe?

Next comes the attempt to engage us on various issues, sex, life, religion and these reflect the themes we expound on here. You're listening to us, aren't you Joe? All the while taking the opportunity to address your particular religious views.

You converse with us using the language we use, Obscenities and imitating the style of the the Spin Cycle bloggers and the members of our Commentariat.

You concede points. Not important ones, but enough so that you'll look cool. Sure, you really do care, and besides you know we're not the big tough guys we make out. Deep inside we're vulnerable people, hurting at the slights the Universe dishes out.

You cast yourself as non-threatening. The "if I'm not welcome, I'll leave" lines. You REALLY just wanna be friends with us. You're really just a nice guy. A nice guy with good news to share.

And lastly you attempt to represent yourself as being almost like us, to wit:

Myself, not being of your particular coterie, have my own unique temptations which if entertained would land me in the same barrel of shit that gays find themselves in, societally and ecumenically. Therefore, I CHOOSE to abstain.

This one was especially good, Joe. I'll bite Joe, what are your "own unique temptations"? Share with us. We're friends now, aren't we? I've not engaged you thus far because frankly, you bore me. Well up until now.

So Joe, you see, your style comes straight from the evangelical "working with the outcasts" handbook and I can pick it and, from what I can tell, the Commentariat isn't fooled either.

But I'm still interested to know, from what do you "choose to abstain"?

MtD

 
At Fri Jul 14, 01:07:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous dachshund said...

Joe, I hate to break it to you doll...your ways are anything but unorthodox. Quite the contrary, your "ways" are oh so predictable. It fact they are right out of the scientology playbook.

I am disappointed. I thought you were going be a little more clever...a little more fun. Wishful thinking on my part.

You really did not need to respond to my question 'bout mo's...I could have predicted your "unorthodox" reply. Since I am not into scat I won't bother with the barrel of shit reference.

Try AIDSmeds...you will have better luck finding converts. I myself join the list of the bored.

Eternally damned,
Aunty Doxie

 
At Fri Jul 14, 02:16:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous "Joe" aka "Phoquetarde" said...

Dox: (or Dach... whatever!)

Is that what this is... fun? Sheesh! I'm getting mixed signals, here! Matty says you're hurting and vulnerable. You're telling me that you're my intellectual superior and life's a hoot!

Well, I'm sorry I disappoint you, but I'll get over it. One thing that does amaze me is just how quick you are to write yourself off, despite the not-so-elaborate front you're throwing up!

Mat... I'm not trying to fool anyone, and here's why: I have nothing to lose (or gain) from being here at all. I do care, and frankly I like the exchange, as morose and splenetic as it is. But, I can walk any time.

Everyone has their problems. Yeah, even heteros... and the old, the infirm, the dull, the affluent, the criminally insane, etc., etc... we all of us live on planet Earth, which just happens to be at this point in time the commode of the universe. Is that a revelation to y'all?

You think I bore you, and so you want to hear my story? There's more game-playing here than meets the eye... on all sides... me thinks!

Let's see how we do on the second date... if there is one!

Gotta go... life is calling again.

 
At Fri Jul 14, 03:27:00 AM GMT+10, Blogger Bucko said...

Joe-

I lost an Ecuadorian boyfriend (raised in LA and trained in proper faggotry in San Francisco and Santa Fe) over three key points which he found unforgiveable: I attempted to gain entry into the inner sanctorum of the home life he shared with his obsessive, doting mother; While accepting that he found some measure of support in the arms of Jesus, I did not; and he found my e-mails unbearably wordy and verbose and tired of the hard labor of gleaning chestnuts from wheelbarrows of pebbles. But it wasn't such a terrible loss, you see. He was cute but circumcised, into feet in a major way (he would devour my entire foot, an 10 1/2EEE in one gulp), and lived with more secrets than a CIA triple agent. We'd have never really had a life together.

My verbosity comes from the tales I choose to tell in order to illustrate various points. Relating the difficulties my sister Sherry has in her life was important to your understanding of the story, and without the added subtext of the Monastery and Father Terry my point would not have been as clear either. I actually left out much more detail than I related, most of which will eventually find its way into the promised blog article, I'm sure.

"Dach -- queerness may or may not be a choice, but if the latter, I'd chalk it up to the result of a fallen nature, which landed us all here in this shithole in the first place. Myself, not being of your particular coterie, have my own unique temptations which if entertained would land me in the same barrel of shit that gays find themselves in, societally and ecumenically. Therefore, I CHOOSE to abstain."

Here you have left a particularly ripe pile of merde for the world to digest, each word rendolent with savory possibilities. In the order in which they dropped:
*Being gay (or queer or whatever) is not some neurotic choice. If there is any element of choice whatsoever it's in deciding to live fully as we were born (created, to use your vocabulary). If we were all created in His likeness, wouldn't the denial of our true natures be a great sin? Or are you saying that God makes mistakes occasionally?
*Then you bring up the Fall of Man, but with an interesting twist. Presuming for a moment that God created the Earth and all its creatures with flaws designed to catch us up and expose our "weaknesses", what is the point? Must we struggle eternally against the lush temptations of our natures in order to prove ourselves worthy of His favor? Why must God be so insecure that he would test his living image so continuously? Or is "this shithole" not the Earth, but rather the man-made construct and distortion of His true design and purpose?
*"Coterie" is a most interesting word, mon vieux. According to an online dictionary I consulted, the definition ("an exclusive circle of people with a common purpose") conveys all the context I'd always presumed freighted the word. It befits descriptions of specific people at specific times, say late 18th century France or the Symbolist/Decadent school of a century later, perhaps even those who rallied against the injustices of the Depression, only to find themselves under the guns of Congress twenty years later. it is an exclusionary word, not a compliment. [I am reminded of a valuable lesson learned in Paris, when Jean-Marc was trying to explain when (and when not) to use the "vous" form (second-person plural, a bit like you-all but different). "Vous" was to be used in order to show respect and when speaking to more than one person, for sure. but it was also used to seperate oneself from too-close an association with the person whom one addressed in such manner. Bums on the street, for instance, were always addressed as "vous".]
*I, like MtD, am curious as to what "temptations" you have that would lead to your downfall, the same genre of downfall that you feel bedevils us here at The Spin Cycle.
*Gays have landed in a barrel of shit? Through discriminatory practices of the church and various powers within larger society (often interrelated, BTW: we are not automatically rejected by all areas of society, just certain bigots and reactionaries), we have been led to develop our own associations and societies of contacts. I was immeasurably broadened by my association with humanist intellectuals, feminists/lesbians and the leather brotherhood in Boston/Cambridge in the seventies and eighties. Spend a week in Provincetown during season or attend the festivities at any of the Gay Pride events happening throughout the Summer (not too late to catch Montreal Pride, BTW), and you'll find that, far from being the desperate sex-and-drug obsessed wack-jobs you have in your mind, gays and lesbians encompass a broad range of tastes, appetites and demeanors. Notice I did not use the word "lifestyle", which the tutt-tutts of the smug Xtian right have twisted into "deathstyle" and to which you have made an oblique reference without having said so directly.
*One of the reasons why I am Pagan and do not adhere to one of the Bloody Three is that they are dependant upon the concept of "free will" and "choice". The older I get the more I'm convinced that predestination and fate figure much more heavily into my life than any blind groping of "choice". I am living out a life (with all its rewards and challenges) that was preselected and fitted for specific lessons I needed to learn this time around. That is why I firmly believe that not living one's life to the fullest is a grave insult to the master plan, of which I cannot imagine the grander design. Nor is it required. My job is to take opportunity to explore and run with it, not hold back. The only real "choice" I've ever had is either to hide away, scared to actualize my destiny or confronting it head-on and deal with its consequences. MY spirituality demands nothing less.

No one, I repeat, no one gets out of here alive. I'm sure you've heard the urban myth, occasionally proven true, of some old woman who lived like a bag lady, seemingly homeless, with millions in the bank when she died. What was the point to her existence? Why deny herself and others the good that spreading her cash before her death? Wasn't it all a big waste, and a needless prolonging of suffering for those for whom her money might have made a difference? In the end, she's still dead, but her life was a complete and utter waste of potential.

 
At Fri Jul 14, 03:35:00 AM GMT+10, Blogger Bucko said...

One last thing: Monsieur le Phoquetarde seems more Greek than French. The "e" on the end in particular seems much more feminine than masculine, too.

And must I say that the repeated scatalogical references lay bare toilet-training trauma?

Ciao-
B

 
At Fri Jul 14, 06:05:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous dachshund said...

Joe,
I wanted to come up with a witty reply...but it just ain't happening. Sorry if I thought I could mix fun and religion. It just upsets me so that you are able to see through my facade of happiness.

You see Joe here is the difference...I am an atheist and you are a...you know I am not sure because all what you say is so vague...so I will say christian. Bottom line I don't care what you believe (unless it blurs the line between church and state)and I don't care what think about what I believe. Twist it any way you want...it won't change a thing. I ain't changing and I ain't believing...case closed.

I do think Buck's is on to something about your harsh toilet training.

Aunty Dox,dachs,docks(whatever...it still will not change anything)

 
At Sat Jul 15, 02:20:00 AM GMT+10, Blogger Brian FInch said...

Oh my god, great post. But what a bunch of fucked up people!

BTW, if you want to talk about a small world Kenn Chaplin, the guy who wrote about Montreal's games, and our incredible disdain for the United States and its HIV policy, which is BTW only in line with two other countries, Saudi Arabia and some other place that will behead you for sucking cock.

They sure keep fine company those americans.

And, you know I can't get away with being a wee bit prickly, long posts where extrodinary usages of emprunts from other languages is about as impressive as feeling the need to be celebate.

Folks life is too short, don't make all completely fucked up. I'm here on the bonus round as I should have been dead a long time ago. That's what makes you see what is important and what isn't, so fuck god, and live the way that makes you happy.

 
At Sat Jul 15, 02:33:00 AM GMT+10, Blogger Bucko said...

Dasch-

Joe's on a mission to convert the heathen. I guess we were pathetically unhappy, desperately unfulfilled and needing of his insights and the wisdom and comfort of the Holy Word, and he came along just in time. Perhaps he was sent by the GCN, perhaps he stumbled on us Googling "Titpig" or "Mancunt".

I find Matty's observations especially enlightening regarding our fair visitor. Call me crazy, but I don't really see what a straight, HIV negative man would find of interest around here. The only other guy who might fit such a description (and infinitely cooler, BTW) was "Consumed" from AM. I PMd him shortly after publishing chapter three and asked him for a frank opinion, if perhaps I'd gone too far in publishing such drivel for the world to see (and judge me by). His response was concise and sweet, as usual: "Typical alpha-male behaviour, well written." he was asked specifically to tell me what he thought, gloves off, as I trust him enough to suffer the truth of his frank, honest opinion. His response encouraged me tremendously.

I have to wonder to what extent further dialog with "Joe" would really matter. Hopefully he's bring something new to the table.

As always dear, your missives are a clarion call of reason and wit.

Bisous,
B

 
At Sat Jul 15, 07:48:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous Lydia Lunch said...

I find Joe to be very tired and very cliched. I grew up in Orange County California, and I am more than familiar with these pseudo-intellectual, home schooled, bible college graduates who have read all the works of C.S. Lewis, twelve times, and talk the love of Christ while simultaneously living a life of hatred and hypocrisy.

I have to say that I find him boring.

After all the years I have spent listening to the exact same garbage, he really is just a blast from my O.C. past, a past I would rather forget.

 
At Sat Jul 15, 12:16:00 PM GMT+10, Anonymous "Joe" said...

Yo, there... my grandiloquent little 'uns! Your favorite shitting post is back once again! This is the old Phoque-ster comin' at yuh, five by five! I see the speculation is flying fast and furious; especially with you, Lyds, my little Snookums!

Hell... I haven't had compliments like those in quite a spell! Let's see... now where oh where is that sheepskin of mine... no... I guess I never really had one, after all! I vaguely remember hating school and getting the hell out of it just as soon as my lil 'ol' white hetero ass was capable of eluding the truancy men. Yep, I do remember that!

I may be a pseudo-intellectual, but I was never home-schooled, Babe! My mother hated teaching me anything, and the Christian colleges had nothing I wanted... just a lot of the humanist bullshit you so love and admire. My education came from the world's school of hard knocks, and in places you little darlings wouldn't know nuttin' about.

Bucky -- I really did appreciate your relating your past with me. My concern was that a certain individual might swoop down upon you and beat you with her 'wordy stick'. No offence taken here, but did you get permission that I did not?

Brian... and nice to meet you... you hit it right on the nose, compadre!

Bucko... my mission (and I did choose to accept it) was to boldly go where many have gone before, but perhaps stike up a 'relationship' of sorts, rather than try to convince you guys of something you're already accomplished at loathing. But, if something came of it... who am I to buck fate? I'm just so happy and carefree, and I want the whole fucked-up world to join hands with me and sing "Kumbaya!"

Lyds, sugar-tushie... what does O.C. stand for? My pseudo-professor never taught me that one!

Yours in a most phoqued-up way...

"Joe"

 
At Sat Jul 15, 10:35:00 PM GMT+10, Anonymous dachshund said...

Well look what we got here...a real dirt-beneath-the-finger-nails- working man. No wonder you effete, sissy-boys can't understand Joe...you ladies don't no nuttin about work. The only hard-knocks you bitches ever had involved a headboard. Joe being a man's man, don't expect these Nancy-boys to understand. Mo's are sooo silly.
Now Joe you know speculation is a two way street my friend...you continue to prove it. Joe don't confuse loathing with questioning or disbelief. I do believe in ghosts...I do believe in ghosts...
The answer to your question is in the second sentence of Lyds post...ah,the mysteries of life.
I hope gardener is through with the lawn...

Aunty Doxie

 
At Sun Jul 16, 05:43:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous Lydia Lunch said...

"Lyds, sugar-tushie... what does O.C. stand for? My pseudo-professor never taught me that one!"

Moron,

It stands for "Orange County".

Oh, and...... YAWN!

 
At Sun Jul 16, 10:48:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous "Joe" said...

I... uh... don't exactly know where the accusation of sexism is justified from my last comment, but given the source of that accusation, it seems a little clearer.

And Lyds... I thought you meant your O-verly C-ynical past life, and judging from the present, you're not doing a very good job of forgetting.

Do they make oranges there?

 
At Sun Jul 16, 10:21:00 PM GMT+10, Anonymous dachshund said...

Joe I've tried witticism, humour, sarcasm, even a bon mot or two...but irony is wasted on the stupid.

I bid you adieu.
Aunty Doxie

 
At Mon Jul 17, 04:53:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous "Joe" said...

Suit yourself. Tit-for-tat doesn't seem agreeable to you... you like to dish it out, but when it comes back it's not so nice. In my opinion, this kind of "witticism" has always led, in my experience, to exactly where it is we are now. I have nothing against you, and you know nothing about me.

I'll be mocked for this, but I will say to you that I made a mistake coming on to you guys in the 'street' vernacular. Although I may be familiar with the terms, I don't live the lifestyle anymore. It got your attention, for sure, but I don't find it serves any purpose in the long run. It seems like there is this unwritten rule in society that we all have to be bad-asses and tough guys, lest we be mowed down emotionally and intellectually. Idiotic, if you ask me.

So... I fell for it, I admit it. We should just be ourselves, and let the chips fall where they will. Truth always finds it's way out.

You guys are a formidable bunch, to be sure. I liked the interchange, but soon regretted my overt approach, because you're not stupid and deserve better. You are wrong about the sexism. Some of my life's best mentors have been women.

So, there... I've exposed my flank... fire away! If you like, I'm gone... no need to even respond. My life is on the highway as a long-distance trucker, for the past 30 years. For two years prior to that I was a recon trooper in the Canadian Forces, right around the time of the pull-out from Saigon. Yeah... there were Canadians there, too. I missed that war... thank God. The one brewing over there now has the potential to make "Nam" look sick, by comparison.

In 30 years on the road you see a lot. You guys could probably show me a lot more, to be sure. I give you my hand and say, farewell.

No hard feelings?

 
At Mon Jul 17, 09:00:00 AM GMT+10, Blogger Matty the Damned said...

I'll be mocked for this, but I will say to you that I made a mistake coming on to you guys in the 'street' vernacular. Although I may be familiar with the terms, I don't live the lifestyle anymore.

Sweetpea, we've been mocking you for a while now, but that to one side I have to say: yeah, so what Joe? You're an ex-gay - oh sorry a trucker. Oops, a Canadian. Whatever, let's put it up in lights anyway.

You're queer dear.

You're not special. In the United States of Miracle it seems that queens are coming out of and going back into the closet at a rate of knots.

You still haven't answered my questions nor said anything of consequence. It's all just endless blah.

Here's a new question -- do you want to convert us or fuck us? Or both?

I just HAVE to know.

MtD

 
At Mon Jul 17, 02:22:00 PM GMT+10, Anonymous "Joe" said...

Sorry, Bud... no royalty in my background...

Savvy?

Adios!

 
At Tue Jul 18, 01:49:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous Lydia Lunch said...

Joe,

Yawn.

You sound bitchier and queenier than any bitch queen I have encountered, and I have encountered many.

Do you think that by attempting to communicate with us in a manner that actually seems to be mocking us is either witty or clever?

You are some undereducated, pathetic religionist who should have spent more time in school and less time in church, in my humble opinion.

You snap between the love of Christ and the hatred of "God The Father" quite effortlessly. No wonder such a rash, illogical, and unstable belief system appeals to you. It was devised my simple-minded emotionally unstable primitives, much like yourself.

Oh, and YAWN.

 
At Tue Jul 18, 01:54:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous Lydia Lunch said...

"If you like, I'm gone... no need to even respond."

Joe,

To be honest, your mood swings, between attempting "a connection" and attacking us, along with your needy and desperate fear of rejection remind me of the classic sufferer of Borderline Personality Disorder. You might want to look up the DSM-4 to find more details.

I know that one cannot diagnose another over the internet, but you seem too "borderline" not to mention the possibility. People who suffer from this disorder often find comfort in the absolutes provided by religion. Sufferers of BPD as it is called often see the world in absolutes.

 
At Wed Jul 19, 12:42:00 AM GMT+10, Anonymous Lydia Lunch said...

Sadly, I have to say that the blood being shed by the "Bloody Three" is spilling daily in Lebanon. Israel continues its policy of "an eye for a tooth" and Bush meanwhile gives Israel the implied thumbs up regarding attacking Syria and Iran.

Israel will likely do Bush's dirty work and force the entire region into war. Bush just wants Armageddon (sp?) and is willing to do whatever it takes to bring about "the end times".

Religion is bringing down humankind once again.


"God is love?!?!" More like "God is blood!"

 

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